Historical Arguments and Debates

[heydaralon]

Three rebuttals based on assigning “human nature” to aliens.

And I’m accused of a lack of imagination.

Wrong. Assigning LIFE nature to aliens.

My cats hunt mice, chipmunk, etc. Do they do this for lack of food? One of them is 15+lbs, trust me he's not starving. It's in their nature, it's instinct. Even plants have developed mechanisms to hopefully out-compete other plant species. Humans are just a more intelligent version of species on the planet, but we still have our instincts - they are what let us survive.

Any alien species likely had to compete for resources on their own home planet, to evolve an intelligent species pretty much requires a long history of preceding species/life to get there, and the associated competition/skills to survive. Even colonizing new planets would require competition (even if against "nature", as we would be on say Mars, fighting sandstorms, finding water, possible soil issues, different/no atmosphere, etc).

Life, on earth or anywhere else, is a fight, a competition for survival. To imagine this isn't/wasn't true for some alien species elsewhere is ludicrous.

This. If we assume that aliens came about from the same sort of broad natural selection process we did, then it stands to reason that they competed with other forms of life on their planet to attain dominance. Once they evolved cognition, those survival instincts would have baked into their DNA the same as ours. Even plants compete with one another for sunlight and water. This idea that the Earth and nature are these harmonious systems is very naive. If you examine any ecosystem, you will see a brutal life and death struggle while also seeing cooperation. Both are possible, but neither are ever fully eliminated.

[SuburbanFarmer]

Again, drawing from the life experience of exactly ONE primitive planet.

If we were to advance to the point that we could harvest resources at will from the galaxy, the need for competition would eventually be moot. Sure, we could fight for territory/control of those planets, but on that scale, a single world would be insignificant.

A world like ours, to a civilization like that, would be a petri dish. Nothing more.

What resources do you imagine that Earth would hold, that couldn't be found anywhere else in the galaxy? Probably a new interesting bacterium or chemical compound, right?

And what would you do if you found such a place, inhabited by violent apes?

You'd sample everything, test everything, avoid the natives, and then move on. Which is exactly what we're seeing if ,in fact, the alien sightings are real.

[Speaker to Animals]

I guess you are left with the task of formulating some new form of evution that is not based on competition (war, basically), and then logically show it is reasonably possible.

[SuburbanFarmer]

I guess you are left with the task of formulating some new form of evution that is not based on competition (war, basically), and then logically show it is reasonably possible.

Talk about a strawman...

[Speaker to Animals]

I guess you are left with the task of formulating some new form of evution that is not based on competition (war, basically), and then logically show it is reasonably possible.

Talk about a strawman...

How is that a straw man?

You said there must be some kind of evolution that is wholly different from the one we know on Earth. I am asking you to postulate how such a thing works without competition and strife. That's not a straw man. I am merely asking you to articulate your point.

[SuburbanFarmer]

I guess you are left with the task of formulating some new form of evution that is not based on competition (war, basically), and then logically show it is reasonably possible.

Talk about a strawman...

How is that a straw man?

You said there must be some kind of evolution that is wholly different from the one we know on Earth. I am asking you to postulate how such a thing works without competition and strife. That's not a straw man. I am merely asking you to articulate your point.

I said no such thing. I said that the competition for basic resources could be transcended by technology on the scale of galactic travel and harvesting.

[C-Mag]

I'd like to ask folks probabilities on some questions.

Percentage Chance
Intelligent Extraterrestrial Life Exists: __%
Intelligent ET has Interstellar capabilities: __%
Intelligent ET has visited Earth: __%

[Speaker to Animals]

I'd like to ask folks probabilities on some questions.

Percentage Chance
Intelligent Extraterrestrial Life Exists: __%
Intelligent ET has Interstellar capabilities: __%
Intelligent ET has visited Earth: __%

No idea
No idea
No idea

[heydaralon]

Again, drawing from the life experience of exactly ONE primitive planet.

If we were to advance to the point that we could harvest resources at will from the galaxy, the need for competition would eventually be moot. Sure, we could fight for territory/control of those planets, but on that scale, a single world would be insignificant.

A world like ours, to a civilization like that, would be a petri dish. Nothing more.

What resources do you imagine that Earth would hold, that couldn't be found anywhere else in the galaxy? Probably a new interesting bacterium or chemical compound, right?

And what would you do if you found such a place, inhabited by violent apes?

You'd sample everything, test everything, avoid the natives, and then move on. Which is exactly what we're seeing if ,in fact, the alien sightings are real.

How do you know our planet is primitive or would be percieved that way?

Since a large chunk of our innovation as a species is from military conflict and paranoia including internet and space race, there is a good chance that if aliens exist and had tech, their inventions would be created for the same purpose and from the same process.

Also, if we could harvest resources from all over the galaxy, competition would not be moot imo. First off, right now, on our own planet, we have grown enough food for every person on Earth to eat. We have enough land for everyone to spread out and live with a certain amount of property. Poor people in the west have crazy technological gadgets and large amounts of property with luxuries unavailale to even the richest a century before. In theory, we have produced enough to the point where everyone should be content, and above fighting. If you told people in the past of our productivity and inventions of the now, they'd be incredulous. But, we still have wars, geo-political conflicts, political division, bloody street brawls, financial greed and scams, nuclear threats etc. Our standards of living have risen but so have our expectations. I see no reason why this would change if we or some other species invented space travel. We'd simple fight with faster vehicles, and more powerful weapons, over interplanetary resources.

Additionally, in my opinion, it is possible that there are not a whole lot of planets like Earth. Maybe hydrocarbons exist elsewhere but are very rare, and aliens need them for some reason. Maybe our atmosphere is also a rarity in the universe, and thus extremely valuable. Our planet has come about being in just the right conditions and just the right distance from a large star. Maybe there are trillions of Earths in our universe, maybe only 3 or 4. I'm not sure, but aliens might have an agenda for being interested.

Btw, I think alien sightings are bullshit. I think they are more interesting when they are looked at as exercises in extreme human psychology. Throughout the last century, non-crazy, often highly rational people have told amazing stories about Alien sightings and abductions, and in most cases it seems they weren't lying. They believe this is what happened. I do not believe they were abducted, but I am fascinated by this phenomenon, and what is shows us about the human mind.

[C-Mag]

I'd like to ask folks probabilities on some questions.

Percentage Chance
Intelligent Extraterrestrial Life Exists: __%
Intelligent ET has Interstellar capabilities: __%
Intelligent ET has visited Earth: __%

No idea
No idea
No idea

Damn you Doc, I was counting on you to put some numbers on this. You're the SciFi Bookworm.
Don't be weak, throw some numbers out.