The Counter-Revolution of 1787

[Ex-California]

Are those supposed to be detracting examples of the confederation??

Once more, it's easy to say what you didn't like about it. But what would have happened had it not been ratified? What would your glorious Libertarian paradise have looked like, 10, 20 50, 100 years later? Would VA & PA have had a war over the Ohio valley? Would all of the continent but New England be slaveholding? Or would England have reconquered the colonies, seeing a disorganized and broke mess with no ability anymore to borrow for war since they repudiated their previous debts and had no banking structure? What?

I agree with you here, the US would have been a disorganized, poor mess like South America without the Constitution.

[GloryofGreece]

There was no real Executive Branch nor Judicial Branch under the Articles. The question to ask is whether that was a bad thing or not? I guess it depends on what you want and pros and cons on more centralized government. It certainly arguable either way. Yes, the Articles were weak...was that a bad thing? For liberty a looser Confederation was probably better for most than a stronger Federation. In any case, adding the Bill of Rights and the Constitution didn't seem to make most people in America more "free" than they were in the 1780s. It was such a quick turn around from the war-time government to the Constitution who knows what it would have really been like if we stayed with the Articles for another 100 years.

[brewster]

It is easy enough to imagine a counterfactual history where Jeffersonian style, agrarian democracy won the day, and we were all freer for it.

If it's easy then go for it. I personally have a hard time seeing how a technologically and economically stagnant US stays free and prosperous while other nations modernize. But the Articles were a nation or government in name only. IMO at best we would end up like China was by mid 19th century, ripe for imperialism. More likely we would have devolved into continual warfare like S America, Europe and India, with despots and warlords taking control of states.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

It is easy enough to imagine a counterfactual history where Jeffersonian style, agrarian democracy won the day, and we were all freer for it.

If it's easy then go for it. I personally have a hard time seeing how a technologically and economically stagnant US stays free and prosperous while other nations modernize. But the Articles were a nation or government in name only. IMO at best we would end up like China was by mid 19th century, ripe for imperialism. More likely we would have devolved into continual warfare like S America, Europe and India, with despots and warlords taking control of states.

I'm agreeing with you for Christ sake, read the second sentence of the damn post ya' idjit.

[brewster]

It is easy enough to imagine a counterfactual history where Jeffersonian style, agrarian democracy won the day, and we were all freer for it.

If it's easy then go for it. I personally have a hard time seeing how a technologically and economically stagnant US stays free and prosperous while other nations modernize. But the Articles were a nation or government in name only. IMO at best we would end up like China was by mid 19th century, ripe for imperialism. More likely we would have devolved into continual warfare like S America, Europe and India, with despots and warlords taking control of states.

I'm agreeing with you for Christ sake, read the second sentence of the damn post ya' idjit.

I didn't realize that "when you compare an ideal to reality, reality is always going to get the short shrift" was intended to negate your previous sentence. It's something that is true at all times. But particularly for the Jeffersonians, whose entire philosophy was based in hypocrisy. The slaveholding, heavily borrowing Jefferson ranting about freedom and against banks, and then purchasing Louisiana, something he would have crucified Federalists for.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

If it's easy then go for it. I personally have a hard time seeing how a technologically and economically stagnant US stays free and prosperous while other nations modernize. But the Articles were a nation or government in name only. IMO at best we would end up like China was by mid 19th century, ripe for imperialism. More likely we would have devolved into continual warfare like S America, Europe and India, with despots and warlords taking control of states.

I'm agreeing with you for Christ sake, read the second sentence of the damn post ya' idjit.

I didn't realize that "when you compare an ideal to reality, reality is always going to get the short shrift" was intended to negate your previous sentence. It's something that is true at all times. But particularly for the Jeffersonians, whose entire philosophy was based in hypocrisy. The slaveholding, heavily borrowing Jefferson ranting about freedom and against banks, and then purchasing Louisiana, something he would have crucified Federalists for.

Sorry, it was a little cryptic.

When I say 'easy to imagine,' I'm not saying that it is likely.... but that imagining how great something that didn't happen would have been, is easy.

[brewster]

When I say 'easy to imagine,' I'm not saying that it is likely.... but that imagining how great something that didn't happen would have been, is easy.

One of the things usually needed to "imagine" is to deny the things that make it unlikely. I can imagine winning the lottery as long as I don't think about the odds. I can imagine screwing a supermodel as long as I forget I'm a tubby, middle aged man of modest means.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

When I say 'easy to imagine,' I'm not saying that it is likely.... but that imagining how great something that didn't happen would have been, is easy.

One of the things usually needed to "imagine" is to deny the things that make it unlikely. I can imagine winning the lottery as long as I don't think about the odds. I can imagine screwing a supermodel as long as I forget I'm a tubby, middle aged man of modest means.

Yeah. It would be great.

[brewster]

Yeah. It would be great.

You talking about the model?

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

Yeah. It would be great.

You talking about the model?

And the lottery!

Of course, the lottery is sort of tied into the getting the model... so lets just say, yeah, the model.