What if Jefferson had gotten the agrarian country he wanted?

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SuburbanFarmer
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Re: What if Jefferson had gotten the agrarian country he wanted?

Post by SuburbanFarmer »

heydaralon wrote:
Speaker to Animals wrote:They just don't see it because it's hidden behind so many layers. They have been tricked into believing their tax rates are morally good things, and even then, the taxes are so dispersed and confusing that it's difficult for many of them to realize they are paying an enormous tax rate when you add it all up. Then they don't see the impact of the inflation very easily and how that too is like draining them of their labor.

At the end of the day, the central bank is stealing your labor for the profit of bankers. The average American man is probably working at least a month if not more just to pay the interest off on those dollars. How is that not slavery? Did Joe Blow get a say in how our monetary system is run? Did he get a say in how the financial system would steal from him? Not really. But he is expected to work for some time for the benefit of those banks.

And I can already see how the pro-central bankers would respond: oh, you hate poor people and you don't want to pay taxes to help people. No, motherfucker, I want to help my fellow countrymen live good and fruitful lives. What I don't want to see is my fellow countrymen laboring for months just to pay taxes that go to paying off the interest on fake money.
What would you like to see in place of a central bank? I am inherently distrustful of large banks the same way that you are, I am just not creative enough to think of a viable alternative. If our society was organized differently, and not as interconnected to the rest of the world it might be easier to envision a more spread out localized financial system. But I think that leads to other problems as well. I remember learning about how local banks would issue notes that would only be good in certain areas and this led to all kinds of problems as well. I may be remembering this wrong, but having a currency issued locally led to mini-panics, and questions of legitimacy.
A central bank is not needed to establish a national currency. What you read about was the early implementation of debt notes - which could be exchanged for silver or bullion.

The federal reserve is named that because they are a national fractional reserve bank made up of a conglomerate of private banksters. Fractional reserve banking means 'I have $20 here that someone entrusted me with, but I'll lend out $1000 and just hope nobody wants their money back'.

The "national" part comes in where they are given the power to set interest rates for all inter-bank lending at once - explicitly acting as a monopoly, but with the governments blessing.
Last edited by SuburbanFarmer on Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DBTrek
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Re: What if Jefferson had gotten the agrarian country he wanted?

Post by DBTrek »



What if Libertarians got the Westreros they wanted?
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SuburbanFarmer
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Re: What if Jefferson had gotten the agrarian country he wanted?

Post by SuburbanFarmer »

DBTrek wrote:

What if Libertarians got the Westreros they wanted?
LOL stealing this
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brewster
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Re: What if Jefferson had gotten the agrarian country he wanted?

Post by brewster »

DBTrek wrote:

What if Libertarians got the Westreros they wanted?
Tempted to vote Libertarian from now on, apparently they're the only party with a sense of humor (excepting Al Franken of course), wouldn't know it from the Paul clan.

Still fascinated at the untouchable nature of Jeffersonian America. People will speculate about Nazis occupying the US or the South winning the war, but not Jefferson getting his way?
We are only accustomed to dealing with like twenty online personas at a time so when we only have about ten people some people have to be strawmanned in order to advance our same relative go nowhere nonsense positions. -TheReal_ND
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Re: What if Jefferson had gotten the agrarian country he wanted?

Post by Okeefenokee »

the problem in the whole idea, is that the jefferson plan wasn't about jefferson getting his way.

that's the hamilton plan. told you already. your lack of historical knowledge is not my fault.

hamilton wanted a central government that could decide the course of the nation.

jefferson distrusted that central government.

hamilton wanted a central government that behaved like european governments. there's the door to prediction there.

jefferson was against that plan, and historically, no reasonable predictions from what might have been come from it.

your ignorance of history is not my burden. deal with it yourselves.

love him or hate him, jefferson was against the idea that a central government should direct the nation. hamilton was all for it.

we know what hamilton wanted, so we can predict what his central guiding government would have done.

we know what jefferson wanted, but part of that was that there should not be a central guiding government.

we don't know what would have happened had jefferson gotten his way, because his way was that jefferson wouldn't get to decide that.

hamilton's way was that hamilton would decide that.

read a fucking book or two.
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brewster
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Re: What if Jefferson had gotten the agrarian country he wanted?

Post by brewster »

Okeefenokee wrote:the problem in the whole idea, is that the jefferson plan wasn't about jefferson getting his way.

that's the hamilton plan. told you already. your lack of historical knowledge is not my fault.

hamilton wanted a central government that could decide the course of the nation.

jefferson distrusted that central government.

hamilton wanted a central government that behaved like european governments. there's the door to prediction there.

jefferson was against that plan, and historically, no reasonable predictions from what might have been come from it.

your ignorance of history is not my burden. deal with it yourselves.

love him or hate him, jefferson was against the idea that a central government should direct the nation. hamilton was all for it.

we know what hamilton wanted, so we can predict what his central guiding government would have done.

we know what jefferson wanted, but part of that was that there should not be a central guiding government.

we don't know what would have happened had jefferson gotten his way, because his way was that jefferson wouldn't get to decide that.

hamilton's way was that hamilton would decide that.

read a fucking book or two.
That's a ridiculous explanation, "if there's no overarching plan one can't speculate on what would have happened". In either case decisions and actions do or don't happen.

I've read books, I started this thread because I'm reading a book. You've read different books, as have we all. What usually makes forums great is sharing of knowledge. It's sad we can't have a simple history discussion without nastiness, but I guess hostility is the defining characteristic here.\

In all the dissent with Hamiltonian policy presented here, no one has given a counterexample of a prosperous modern society with no central bank or banking system. No one has even named a book supporting Jeffersonian economics or the accusations of Hamiltonian corruption. It's funny to say "read a fucking book" but not say what book has informed your opinion when the thread is about a fucking book I read with which you clearly disagree.
We are only accustomed to dealing with like twenty online personas at a time so when we only have about ten people some people have to be strawmanned in order to advance our same relative go nowhere nonsense positions. -TheReal_ND
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Re: What if Jefferson had gotten the agrarian country he wanted?

Post by Okeefenokee »

brewster wrote:No one has even named a book supporting Jeffersonian economics or the accusations of Hamiltonian corruption.
horse fucking shit. anyone can look through this thread and see book after book people have offered to you.

it's not that no one is offering anything. You're just dismissing everything outright.

You clearly didn't know anything about 17th and 18th century european economies, showing us multiple times that you thought they were capitalist.

And what do you do when I point that out to you? You dismiss it, and plod ahead, not for a second stopping to think that that bit of ignorance in this topic might be a place where you should think on.

You're asking about the economic impacts of possible routes in 18th century America, and the best summation you can give for the economic system they had is, "well, it's not communism, so it's basically capitalism."
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brewster
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Re: What if Jefferson had gotten the agrarian country he wanted?

Post by brewster »

Okeefenokee wrote:
brewster wrote:No one has even named a book supporting Jeffersonian economics or the accusations of Hamiltonian corruption.
horse fucking shit. anyone can look through this thread and see book after book people have offered to you.
You're remembering a different reality than this one. Just to be sure I just reread the entire fucking thread. There's not been one book suggested, even though heydaralon explicitly requested you for some.
We are only accustomed to dealing with like twenty online personas at a time so when we only have about ten people some people have to be strawmanned in order to advance our same relative go nowhere nonsense positions. -TheReal_ND
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Re: What if Jefferson had gotten the agrarian country he wanted?

Post by Okeefenokee »

brewster wrote:
Okeefenokee wrote:
brewster wrote:No one has even named a book supporting Jeffersonian economics or the accusations of Hamiltonian corruption.
horse fucking shit. anyone can look through this thread and see book after book people have offered to you.
You're remembering a different reality than this one. Just to be sure I just reread the entire fucking thread. There's not been one book suggested, even though heydaralon explicitly requested you for some.
Federalist Papers,

http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/documents/178 ... st-papers/

Anti Federalist Papers,

http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/documents/178 ... st-papers/

And I responded to heydaralon in this very thread,
Okeefenokee wrote:i'm not a scholar of this, but you don't have to be a phd to read through the federalist papers, and the anti-federalist papers and hear straight from the horses' mouths what were their thoughts and motivations at the time.
Fife posted a couple books too. Maybe it was in the crossover thread. This discussion is all over the place.
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Okeefenokee
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Re: What if Jefferson had gotten the agrarian country he wanted?

Post by Okeefenokee »

This was in the crossover thread,
Okeefenokee wrote:
heydaralon wrote:Im just having a laugh. Hamilton did some cool stuff
i think that's what burr said at his funeral.

Image
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