What if Jefferson had gotten the agrarian country he wanted?

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Okeefenokee
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Re: What if Jefferson had gotten the agrarian country he wanted?

Post by Okeefenokee »

brewster wrote:
Okeefenokee wrote: dude, you are fucking nuts if you think 18th century colonialism was capitalism.
If there's been a capitalism without somebody's thumb on the scale I haven't heard about it. It was capitalism as much as the crony capitalism and too-big-to-fail crap we have now. It always depends on who's got the power to write and enforce the rules. And the North American colonialism sure was trade based capitalism compared to the pure pillaging in Latin America by the Spanish. If you happened to be a slave, of course, it'll all looked like a horror.

What would Jeff have done with an agrarian society trading with a industrializing one? He needed all those manufactured goods but didn't want to make them.
if it was capitalism, why was it then and now called mercantilism?
Mercantilism was a type of national economic policy designed to maximize the trade of a nation and especially to maximize the accumulation of gold and silver. It was dominant in modernized parts of Europe from the 16th to the 18th centuries.[1] It promoted governmental regulation of a nation's economy for the purpose of augmenting state power at the expense of rival national powers. With the establishment of overseas colonies by northern European powers early in the 17th century, mercantile theory gained a new and wider significance, in which its aim and ideal became both national and imperialistic.[2][need quotation to verify] Mercantilism functioned as the economic counterpart of the older version of political power: divine right of kings and absolute monarchy.[3] Mercantilism includes a national economic policy aimed at accumulating monetary reserves through a positive balance-of-trade, especially of finished goods. Historically, such policies frequently led to war and also motivated colonial expansion. Indeed, with the establishment of overseas colonies by northern European powers early in the 17th century, mercantile theory gained a new and wider significance, in which its aim and ideal became both national and imperialistic.[4] Mercantilist theory varies in sophistication from one writer to another and has evolved over time. High tariffs, especially on manufactured goods, are an almost universal feature of mercantilist policy. Other policies have included:

forbidding colonies to trade with other nations
monopolizing markets with staple ports
banning the export of gold and silver, even for payments
forbidding trade to be carried in foreign ships, as per, for example, the Navigation Acts
subsidies on exports
promoting manufacturing and industry through research or direct subsidies
limiting wages
maximizing the use of domestic resources
restricting domestic consumption through non-tariff barriers to trade
Mercantilism in its simplest form is bullionism, yet mercantilist writers have emphasized the circulation of money and reject hoarding. Their emphasis on monetary metals accords with current ideas regarding the money supply, such as the stimulative effect of a growing money supply. Fiat money and floating exchange rates have since been rendered specie concerns irrelevant. In time, the heavy emphasis on money was supplanted by industrial policy, accompanied by a shift in focus from the capacity to carry on wars to promoting general prosperity. Mature neomercantilist theory recommends selective high tariffs for "infant" industries or the promotion of the mutual growth of countries through national industrial specialization.[citation needed]

The term "mercantile system" was used by its foremost critic, Adam Smith,[5] but Mirabeau (1715-1789) had used "mercantilism" earlier.

Many nations applied the theory, notably France, which was the most important state economically in Europe at the time. King Louis XIV followed the guidance of Jean Baptiste Colbert, his controller general of finances (1665–1683). It was determined[by whom?] that the state should rule in the economic realm as it did in the diplomatic, and that the interests of the state as identified by the king were superior to those of merchants and of everyone else. The goal of mercantilist economic policies was to build up the state, especially in an age of incessant warfare, and the state should look for ways to strengthen the economy and to weaken foreign adversaries.[6]
GrumpyCatFace wrote:Dumb slut partied too hard and woke up in a weird house. Ran out the door, weeping for her failed life choices, concerned townsfolk notes her appearance and alerted the fuzz.

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Ph64
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Re: What if Jefferson had gotten the agrarian country he wanted?

Post by Ph64 »

brewster wrote:I'm reading Hamilton, and it's impressive what a douche Jefferson was. But it leaves me wondering what if?
https://thebaffler.com/salvos/hamilton-hustle-stoller
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Okeefenokee
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Re: What if Jefferson had gotten the agrarian country he wanted?

Post by Okeefenokee »

brewster wrote:I'm reading Hamilton, and it's impressive what a douche Jefferson was.
Image
GrumpyCatFace wrote:Dumb slut partied too hard and woke up in a weird house. Ran out the door, weeping for her failed life choices, concerned townsfolk notes her appearance and alerted the fuzz.

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brewster
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Re: What if Jefferson had gotten the agrarian country he wanted?

Post by brewster »

Okeefenokee wrote: if it was capitalism, why was it then and now called mercantilism?
I guess I see Mercantilism as a flavor of Capitalism, a subdivision, rather than a distinct other system like Communism is. Whatever, it's not worth debating. I did find something amusing while reading, this seems awful familiar:
The average citizen in a mercantilist country does not benefit much. Only the owner of the factory. It is really just and extension of feudalism. Workers receives wages but wages or money that is not worth much if their quality of life is not improved.
An oligarach class is formed
http://political-economy.com/capitalism ... cantilism/

You keep describing finance as slavery, but that is simply useless hyperbole. Most economic structures ever limit choice, but being a medieval farmworker yoked to the land was still better than being a chattel slave.

What would Jeffersonian America have looked like? Why will no one touch this with a 10 foot pole?
We are only accustomed to dealing with like twenty online personas at a time so when we only have about ten people some people have to be strawmanned in order to advance our same relative go nowhere nonsense positions. -TheReal_ND
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Speaker to Animals
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Re: What if Jefferson had gotten the agrarian country he wanted?

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Central banking is a form of slavery. It hides the fact pretty well, but most people spend a great amount of their labor feeding the bankers profits in a nation infected with such a parasite.
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Re: What if Jefferson had gotten the agrarian country he wanted?

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Speaker to Animals wrote:Central banking is a form of slavery. It hides the fact pretty well, but most people spend a great amount of their labor feeding the bankers profits in a nation infected with such a parasite.
:shock: But muh Capitalisum!!!!
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Speaker to Animals
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Re: What if Jefferson had gotten the agrarian country he wanted?

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They just don't see it because it's hidden behind so many layers. They have been tricked into believing their tax rates are morally good things, and even then, the taxes are so dispersed and confusing that it's difficult for many of them to realize they are paying an enormous tax rate when you add it all up. Then they don't see the impact of the inflation very easily and how that too is like draining them of their labor.

At the end of the day, the central bank is stealing your labor for the profit of bankers. The average American man is probably working at least a month if not more just to pay the interest off on those dollars. How is that not slavery? Did Joe Blow get a say in how our monetary system is run? Did he get a say in how the financial system would steal from him? Not really. But he is expected to work for some time for the benefit of those banks.

And I can already see how the pro-central bankers would respond: oh, you hate poor people and you don't want to pay taxes to help people. No, motherfucker, I want to help my fellow countrymen live good and fruitful lives. What I don't want to see is my fellow countrymen laboring for months just to pay taxes that go to paying off the interest on fake money.
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Okeefenokee
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Re: What if Jefferson had gotten the agrarian country he wanted?

Post by Okeefenokee »

brewster wrote:
Okeefenokee wrote: if it was capitalism, why was it then and now called mercantilism?
I guess I see Mercantilism as a flavor of Capitalism, a subdivision, rather than a distinct other system like Communism is. Whatever, it's not worth debating. I did find something amusing while reading, this seems awful familiar:
The average citizen in a mercantilist country does not benefit much. Only the owner of the factory. It is really just and extension of feudalism. Workers receives wages but wages or money that is not worth much if their quality of life is not improved.
An oligarach class is formed
http://political-economy.com/capitalism ... cantilism/

You keep describing finance as slavery, but that is simply useless hyperbole. Most economic structures ever limit choice, but being a medieval farmworker yoked to the land was still better than being a chattel slave.

What would Jeffersonian America have looked like? Why will no one touch this with a 10 foot pole?
brewster, everything that is not communism != capitalism
GrumpyCatFace wrote:Dumb slut partied too hard and woke up in a weird house. Ran out the door, weeping for her failed life choices, concerned townsfolk notes her appearance and alerted the fuzz.

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brewster
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Re: What if Jefferson had gotten the agrarian country he wanted?

Post by brewster »

Banking= slavery is hogwash. That's like saying farming=slavery. It did in this country once. Any business can be criminal in immoral hands. There's some plumbers I can tell you about.

The problem isn't with banking, it's with regulating them. Banks are fucking great!!! Banks lend money to corporations and ordinary people like me to let them grow businesses far faster than they would otherwise. Hamilton foresaw a banking system as key to having a functional dynamic economy. When you don't have banks you don't have growth for savers nor liquidity for business borrowers. But you can't let the banksters run wild. StA, you've read Mote in God's Eye. Remember what they said about the watchmakers? Useful, but you can't let them run wild. That's what has happened. We've let banks run the economy in a way that most profits them not us. It's our fault, we let them. St Reagan and Bill Clinton said "do whatever you want guys", and they sure as fuck did. You gotta mind your crops and weed your own garden, and we didn't. But damning the idea rather than the implementation is self destructive.
We are only accustomed to dealing with like twenty online personas at a time so when we only have about ten people some people have to be strawmanned in order to advance our same relative go nowhere nonsense positions. -TheReal_ND
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Re: What if Jefferson had gotten the agrarian country he wanted?

Post by heydaralon »

Speaker to Animals wrote:They just don't see it because it's hidden behind so many layers. They have been tricked into believing their tax rates are morally good things, and even then, the taxes are so dispersed and confusing that it's difficult for many of them to realize they are paying an enormous tax rate when you add it all up. Then they don't see the impact of the inflation very easily and how that too is like draining them of their labor.

At the end of the day, the central bank is stealing your labor for the profit of bankers. The average American man is probably working at least a month if not more just to pay the interest off on those dollars. How is that not slavery? Did Joe Blow get a say in how our monetary system is run? Did he get a say in how the financial system would steal from him? Not really. But he is expected to work for some time for the benefit of those banks.

And I can already see how the pro-central bankers would respond: oh, you hate poor people and you don't want to pay taxes to help people. No, motherfucker, I want to help my fellow countrymen live good and fruitful lives. What I don't want to see is my fellow countrymen laboring for months just to pay taxes that go to paying off the interest on fake money.
What would you like to see in place of a central bank? I am inherently distrustful of large banks the same way that you are, I am just not creative enough to think of a viable alternative. If our society was organized differently, and not as interconnected to the rest of the world it might be easier to envision a more spread out localized financial system. But I think that leads to other problems as well. I remember learning about how local banks would issue notes that would only be good in certain areas and this led to all kinds of problems as well. I may be remembering this wrong, but having a currency issued locally led to mini-panics, and questions of legitimacy.
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