What Is More to Blame (Looking Back)

[SuburbanFarmer]

I'm also fairly certain that had US independence fight been lost, and only France's revolution been the example of the practical application of Enlightenment Age values, more intellectuals and political leaders throghout Western history might have decided that liberty, democracy, seperation of powers, freedom of speech, etc. were nothing more than a disastrous fluke.

So, thank you for that.

Much as I'd like to give credit for that to my ancestors, I don't think this is the case. Once the Catholic monopoly on spirituality was broken, the lid was truly removed for human progress. The advance of objective thought could never have allowed these notions to be suppressed forever. We might have moved the timetable forward, but the idea of human equality was being birthed across the world, regardless. We just put it in some really good documents.

If not the US, then the Indians, or another British colony would have taken the credit for it. Also, the British could never have hoped to hold an entire continent for long. The Second American Revolution would have been a few decades down the road. If it failed, the Third would be along shortly.

Trends and Forces, always.

Weren't most if not all the universities Catholic/Religious during the Middle Ages? I see a lot of what the "State" became and operated as first having some of the kinks worked out by the Church. One of the most well oiled machines was the Catholic Church after the Inquisition, Reconquista, and Counter Reformation. There were actual men that put forth that work. Ignatius Loyola and Richelieu. I'd argue most of what the Modern Nation State is basically bureaucracy and technocrats. Not so much Enlightenment ideas or philosophy as "technique" would be what Jacques Ellul would call it and author John Ralston Saul of this perversion of the "Enlightenment".

An object lesson in how easily the term "education" can be twisted to mean anything.

[BjornP]

I'm also fairly certain that had US independence fight been lost, and only France's revolution been the example of the practical application of Enlightenment Age values, more intellectuals and political leaders throghout Western history might have decided that liberty, democracy, seperation of powers, freedom of speech, etc. were nothing more than a disastrous fluke.

So, thank you for that.

Much as I'd like to give credit for that to my ancestors, I don't think this is the case. Once the Catholic monopoly on spirituality was broken, the lid was truly removed for human progress. The advance of objective thought could never have allowed these notions to be suppressed forever. We might have moved the timetable forward, but the idea of human equality was being birthed across the world, regardless. We just put it in some really good documents.

If not the US, then the Indians, or another British colony would have taken the credit for it. Also, the British could never have hoped to hold an entire continent for long. The Second American Revolution would have been a few decades down the road. If it failed, the Third would be along shortly.

Trends and Forces, always.

Could it have happened somewhere else? Yes. Did it, though? No.

And the idea of human equality was not being birthed "across the world", only across the Western/European world. And could a second or third American revolution have been succesful? Maybe. But that would have set back the timeline for when people in Europe truly believed that one could make a viable, ordered society based on the values of personal liberty, seperation of powers, freedom of speech and thought, popular representation in government and guarentees on ownership of private property.

If the powers that be can point to a revolutionary French state that just underwent a liberal revolution overthrowing its absolute monarch, and say:

"This! This is the anarchy that awaits all who seek to implement the immoral notions of democracy, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and who seek to seperate the executive, legislative and judiciary powers!"

..the odds of people accepting the truths of the losing side is going to be small.

Uh... it got pretty radical back then dude

Yes. That's what I'm saying.

What is left and what is right should not change based on which country you are in or what year it is,

"Should not"? Doesn't matter if it "shouldn't" or not. It does.

Aboslute Monarchy is on the far right, communism is on the far left

Yes.That's because absolute monarchy is considered so conservative it borders on reactionary , and Communism seeks the radical overthrow of all societies currently in existence. But in my country Liberalism is also on the right. There are social liberal progressive who fit on the left, but for the most part liberals here are neo-liberals or classical liberals, which are all on the right side of the spectrum here. They may not be in Anglo-America, but they are here. So what is left and right quite obviously changes based on which country you're in.

[StCapps]

What is left and what is right should not change based on which country you are in or what year it is,

"Should not"? Doesn't matter if it "shouldn't" or not. It does.

It does not.

Aboslute Monarchy is on the far right, communism is on the far left

Yes.That's because absolute monarchy is considered so conservative it borders on reactionary , and Communism seeks the radical overthrow of all societies currently in existence. But in my country Liberalism is also on the right. There are social liberal progressive who fit on the left, but for the most part liberals here are neo-liberals or classical liberals, which are all on the right side of the spectrum here. They may not be in Anglo-America, but they are here. So what is left and right quite obviously changes based on which country you're in.

No it doesn't, you're political overton window is just in different place on the real left-right spectrum than other nations, that doesn't change what is left and right in your nation or in other nations accordingly.

Don't be obtuse, if Norweigan's don't know what left and right is, that isn't my problem. Call your sliding scale based on context something else other than left-right, it has nothing to do with the real left-right spectrum. Just because many Americans are dumb enough to think the Republicans are on the political right, that doesn't mean they are, most Americans are just retarded and don't know left from right either.

Just because many nations in the world have shifted to the left since the French Revolution doesn't mean what is left and right has changed, it means that many nations have shifted to the left. What's so hard to understand about that?
/shrugs

[heydaralon]

I would blame GrumpyCatFace the most for my current situation, but that's because when I asked him for help installing my new web browser he added on all these toolbars that I will not use. I now have the dealio toolbar and bing market toolbar plus the weather one and NASDAQ updates. I'm pretty sure he put some viruses on my computer, or those might be from pornhub idk.

[SuburbanFarmer]

I would blame GrumpyCatFace the most for my current situation, but that's because when I asked him for help installing my new web browser he added on all these toolbars that I will not use. I now have the dealio toolbar and bing market toolbar plus the weather one and NASDAQ updates. I'm pretty sure he put some viruses on my computer, or those might be from pornhub idk.

[Ex-California]

Blame?

The changes wrought by the Reformation and Age of Revolutions are mostly positive, unless you're one of those types that believes capitalism is the only way that we would have arrived at industrialized warfare

[GloryofGreece]

Blame?

The changes wrought by the Reformation and Age of Revolutions are mostly positive, unless you're one of those types that believes capitalism is the only way that we would have arrived at industrialized warfare

I believe there were quite a number of negative results from the Reformation and Enlightenment. Most involve radicalization and moral relativism.

[SuburbanFarmer]

Blame?

The changes wrought by the Reformation and Age of Revolutions are mostly positive, unless you're one of those types that believes capitalism is the only way that we would have arrived at industrialized warfare

It’s pretty hard to imagine a mercantile society mounting those kind of resources and materials.

[heydaralon]

Blame?

The changes wrought by the Reformation and Age of Revolutions are mostly positive, unless you're one of those types that believes capitalism is the only way that we would have arrived at industrialized warfare

I believe there were quite a number of negative results from the Reformation and Enlightenment. Most involve radicalization and moral relativism.

The real legacy left by Martin Luther is vandalism. He nailed the 95 theses to the Wittenburg church door which was private property. He did not take into account that someone spent a lot of time building that door and the church would have to pay a carpenter to fix the damage to the wood. This sends the wrong message to impressionable children. I work with a group of underpriveleged African American youths and they all like to tag stuff with spray paint. When I confront them about it, they think that its "cool" to tag stuff because Martin Luther did it. These kids watch these bbc shows about Luther and all of a sudden damaging private property is "gangsta." Next they start throwing papal envoys out the window because the defenestration of Prague is "trill." When I try to explain to them the economic and cultural background of the 30 years war they keep bringing up LL Cool J's rhymes about Gustavus Adolphus. They need to understand that the Protestant Reformation was a complex and difficult transition for Christianity, they just talk back about indulgences. I wish I could reach these kids and make a difference in their lives.

[SuburbanFarmer]

Nothing private about the medieval Church. That was a state facility, under ownership by the first global government.