Smitty-48 wrote:Wolfe defeats Montcalm at Quebec; what's the engagement range?
Lowbow range? Nope, way closer. Crossbow range? No, way closer than that too
What was the range? Inside forty yards, point blank.
Not a stand off weapon, it's a phalanx.
The firearm; was not a fire-bow, it was a fire-spear.
The longbow was the field artillery of its day, the firearm which replaced the longbow; was the cannon, but the musket wasn't artillery, the musket replaced the pike.
Hmmmmmmm.
Why can't crossbows be used at 40 yards?
Get that one shot off and drop the crossbow, on to sabres and cudgels.
Smitty-48 wrote:Wolfe defeats Montcalm at Quebec; what's the engagement range?
Lowbow range? Nope, way closer. Crossbow range? No, way closer than that too
What was the range? Inside forty yards, point blank.
Not a stand off weapon, it's a phalanx.
The firearm; was not a fire-bow, it was a fire-spear.
The longbow was the field artillery of its day, the firearm which replaced the longbow; was the cannon, but the musket wasn't artillery, the musket replaced the pike.
Hmmmmmmm.
Why can't crossbows be used at 40 yards?
Get that one shot off and drop the crossbow, on to sabres and cudgels.
You can use your crossbows, but the effects of massed musket fire is going to be exponentially more devastating, a cross bolt sticks into somebody, it hurts, but big whoop, doesn't actually drop him on the spot, musket balls on the other hand, blows them to pieces, arms and legs literally being blown clean off, the musket wasn't accurate, but when massed, it was so devastating, it didn't have to be.
You're not going to your sabres and cudgels, when you've been blown to bits, the next rank has to move up to replace the rank that just got smashed to pieces, and by the time they are in position, the muskets have reloaded, and you're going to run out of bolts a lot faster than they are going to run out of musket balls.
So you think the early firearms were deployed so troops could act like a bunch of Johnny Depp pirates? The black powder firearm is basically a one-trick pony you blast into a closing opponent before getting into melee range?
Again, Wolfe v. Montcalm at Quebec; it's the Thin Red Line v. the French Column, the British are just two ranks of muskets, the French are a massive column coming towards them, the French think they are simply going overrun the British by closing with and destroying them by sheer mass.
Wolfe orders his Thin Red Line to wait until the range is forty yards, he puts a stake in the ground at forty yards and then stands in front to make sure they wont open fire until the last moment.
When it comes to forty yards, Wolfe gives the order to fire, and the front ranks of the French colummn are smashed with a huge volley, like a giant shotgun, the French response is to attempt the DBTrek manuever, they charge as a column to try to fight through, but they never make it, rank after rank is mowed down by the giant shotgun, until the whole French column is annihilated, having never got closer than forty yards.
Quebec is where the Thin Red Line was born, General Wolfe was the one who invented it, he's the one who first said, in effect, "don't shoot till you see the white's of their eyes, nobody opens fire till they get to forty yards, then you shoot, and just keep on shooting as fast as you possibly can..."
By the time things break down into melee, the French have already been pulped, they don't have much left which isn't shot to pieces, by the British go over to the bayonets.
Last edited by Smitty-48 on Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A savage fight developed on Wolfe’s left between the skirmishers and the British Light Infantry and the reserve regiments under Townsend. The three French guns and the single British gun fired at the opposing lines. The French regular battalions advanced to the attack and the British regiments, who had been lying down to avoid the fire, rose up. The French fired ineffectually at too great a distance and came on. The British foot withheld its fire until the range was 35 yards, it is said. Two volleys were sufficient to destroy the French line. The British infantry then advanced and drove the French from the field.
They were thinking it was a fire bow, but it was a fire pike, eh?
(Still, 1757 is still after a good 300 years of field testing firearms in combat. Sounds like they were still trying to figure out how to integrate them with their units)
DBTrek wrote:
They were thinking it was a fire bow, but it was a fire pike, eh?
Exactly the case, bear in mind, Wolfe was no Alexander the Great, he wasn't a heroic figure charging into battle on the back of a white stallion, he was one of the first modern Generals, in that, he was actually a total nerd, the whole operation was executed by the rule of the nerd; it was scientific, he had calculated everything down to the very last detail, including the optimum range to engage with muskets, which was much closer than was the norm at the time.
Well, he probably should have used some of that war nerd knowledge to keep his own ass out of range.
Wolfe, who had been wounded in the hand, advanced with the 28th Foot until he was shot in the groin and then in the chest. A group of soldiers carried him to the rear.
Canadian skirmishers continued to fire on the British until they were driven back. The French army retreated into the city in confusion. Montcalm, who had been shot, was carried with the retreating throng until he was taken from his horse into a house nearby, where he died.
Wolfe rejected medical attention and was laid on the ground. Someone called “See them run”. Wolfe said “Who?” He was answered, “The French.” Wolfe directed the 28th to march to the bridge across the St Charles River to cut off the retreat and then died.
See, the thing is, the instinct was to do the DBTrek manuever, you shoot at standoff range and then charge for a melee, what Wolfe calculated was; if you wait until it's point blank, it's so devastating at that range, that it just pulps the other guy, and there's nobody coming over for a melee, because inside forty yards, the giant shotgun will simply blow them to pieces, and before they can replace that pulpy mess, you can reload and fire again.
Smitty-48 wrote:See, the thing is, the instinct was to do the DBTrek manuever, you shoot at standoff range and then charge for a melee, what Wolfe calculated was; if you wait until it's point blank, it's so devastating at that range, that it just pulps the other guy, and there's nobody coming over for a melee, because inside forty yards, the giant shotgun will simply blow them to pieces, and before they can replace that pulpy mess, you can reload and fire again.
Nonsense.
My instinct is to use damn crossbows, and shoot at crossbow range.
If those clowns start closing with you it's time to fill the air with crossbow bolts until the mounted cavalry can swoop in from the flank and ride them down.
You go ahead and hold those bang-sticks until we close within 40 yards, and I'll stand over here at 80 yards with my crossbow and pincushion you.
You start to see where it's remarkable that firearms hung in there at all right?
Smitty-48 wrote:See, the thing is, the instinct was to do the DBTrek manuever, you shoot at standoff range and then charge for a melee, what Wolfe calculated was; if you wait until it's point blank, it's so devastating at that range, that it just pulps the other guy, and there's nobody coming over for a melee, because inside forty yards, the giant shotgun will simply blow them to pieces, and before they can replace that pulpy mess, you can reload and fire again.
Nonsense.
My instinct is to use damn crossbows, and shoot at crossbow range.
If those clowns start closing with you it's time to fill the air with crossbow bolts until the mounted cavalry can swoop in from the flank and ride them down.
You go ahead and hold those bang-sticks until we close within 40 yards, and I'll stand over here at 80 yards with my crossbow and pincushion you.
You start to see where it's remarkable that firearms hung in there at all right?
That's what artillery is for, that doesn't hit like a pincushion. /shrugs
It's not like the dudes with the muskets can't hit you back at a distance and all they have are their muskets, that's not a thing. Sure in some weird hypothetical where one side can use everything but muskets and one side only has muskets, the side with only muskets is screwed if the other side refuses to close, but that doesn't real tell us anything about the effectiveness of muskets one way or the other.
Last edited by StCapps on Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
