Destroying History

[BjornP]

Sorry dude. Skin color is only skin deep but race is even deeper. One only has to deal with blacks and Hispanics on a daily basis. I know you don't and hardly expect you to understand the difference between races when the extent of your racial awareness hinges on a National Geographic magazine but some of us have to deal with the consequences of multiculturalism.

So, how much does the skin tone, cranial features, the biological appearance thing actually matter to you vs. the cultural aspect? If some years from now your boy introduced you to his new girlfriend, a girl who looked Mexican, but who did not even speak Spanish, because she was raised by white people, would that worry you? If you could be 100% assured that he passed on your culture to his kids, even if your grandkids became a little darker, would that still worry you?

[BjornP]

His wife was literally a priestess of Dionysus. I quoted first sources but you never actually bothered to read it before posting that word vomit.

Yes, that's what that second-hand source says, StA. To repeat why even that should be taken with a grain of salt:

1. Plutarch is not a first hand account to the life of Spartacus. Plutarch 46-120 AD, Spartacus 111 - 71 BC

2. As pointed out, Plutarchs' readers, like most Romans neither knew nor cared about foreign gods or what they represented. Tacitus says Germans worshipped Mercury as their chief deity... do you understand that Mercury is the name of a Roman and not a Germanic deity? Meaning that Roman writers tried their best to name a Roman god that came close to whatever barbarian god(ddes) the barbarians worshipped.

Meaning that, in this case, Dionysus... is not Dionysus.

3. Spartacus was Thracian, so he'd worship Thracian gods... not Roman or Greek ones.

4. Also, you claim they wanted to overturn all gender and social norms, based in no historical source whatsoever. But mostly, there's a logical fallacy in your reasoning. They weren't Roman or part of Roman society in any sense other than a private and state property sense. Do you think that the tribes they came from, the Celts and Thracian communities they came from, had no laws, no rules, no gender roles? And that rather than returning to their own societies, they'd spend their time reforming a foreign country, in some sort of solidarity with low-class Romans? Again, that's Communist revisionist bullshit. No sources back that story up.

[Speaker to Animals]

I gave you the first source of it. Go back and read it. They literally wanted to overturn the social order. Women and men were "equals". No slaves and no masters. That was what that entire movement was about. Stop saying people don't provide you with sources when they clearly do. You just ignore them and say that because your argument is crap.

[Speaker to Animals]

Livvy:

186 B.C. A Hellene of mean condition came, first, into Etruria, a low operator in sacrifices, and a priest of secret and nocturnal rites. These mysterious rites were, at first, imparted to a few, but afterwards communicated to great numbers, both men and women.

To their religious performances were added the pleasures of wine and feasting, to allure a greater number of proselytes. When wine, lascivious discourse, night, and the intercourse of the sexes had extinguished every sentiment of modesty, then debaucheries of every kind began to be practiced, as every person found at hand that sort of enjoyment to which he was disposed by the passion predominant in his nature. Nor were they confined to one species of vice---the promiscuous intercourse of free-born men and women; but from this store-house of villainy proceeded false witnesses, counterfeit seals, false evidences, and pretended discoveries. From the same place, too, proceeded poison and secret murders, so that in some cases, not even the bodies could be found for burial. Many of their audacious deeds were brought about by treachery, but most of them by force; it served to conceal the violence, that, on account of the loud shouting, and the noise of drums and cymbals, none of the cries uttered by the persons suffering violence or murder could be heard abroad.

The infection of this mischief, like that from the contagion of disease, spread from Etruria to Rome; where, the size of the city affording greater room for such evils, and more means of concealment, cloaked it at first; but information of it was at length brought to the consul, Postumius...There was a freedwoman called Hispala Fecenia, a noted courtesan...who gave a full account of the origin of the mysteries. "At first," she said, "those rites were performed by women. No man used to be admitted. They had three stated days in the year on which persons were initiated among the Bacchanalians, in the daytime. The matrons used to be appointed priestesses, in rotation. Paculla Minia, a Campanian, when priestess, made an alteration in every particular, as if by the direction of the gods. For she first introduced men, who were her own sons, Minucius and Herrenius, both surnamed Cerrinius; changed the time of celebration, from day to night; and, instead of three days in the year, appointed five days of initiation, in each month.

From the time that the rites were thus made common, and men were intermixed with women, and the licentious freedom of the night was added, there was nothing wicked, nothing flagitious, that had not been practiced among them. There were more frequent pollution of men with each other than with women. If any were less patient in submitting to dishonor, or more averse to the commission of vice, they were sacrificed as victims. To think nothing unlawful was the grand maxim of their religion. The men, as if bereft of reason, uttered predictions, with frantic contortions of their bodies; the women, in the habit of Bacchantes, with their hair disheveled, and carrying blazing torches, ran down to the Tiber; where, dipping their torches in the water, they drew them up again with the flame unextinguished, being composed of native sulphur and charcoal. They said that those men were carried off by the gods, whom the machines laid hold of and dragged from their view into secret caves. These were such as refused to take the oath of the society, or to associate in their crimes, or to submit to defilement. This number was exceedingly great now, almost a second state in themselves, and among them were many men and women of noble families. During the last two years it had been a rule, that no person above the age of twenty should be initiated; for they sought for people of such age as made them more liable to suffer deception and personal abuse."

Postumius represented the affair to the Senate, laying before them the whole circumstance, in due order; the information given to him at first, and the discoveries gained by his inquiries afterwards. Great consternation seized on the Senators; not only on the public account, lest such conspiracies and nightly meetings might be productive of secret treachery and mischief, but, likewise, on account of their own particular families, lest some of their relations might be involved in this infamous affair. The Senate ordered that the officials in those rites, whether men or women, should be sought for, not only at Rome, but also throughout all the market towns and places of assembly, and be delivered over to the power of the Consuls; and also that proclamation should be made in the city of Rome, and published through all Italy, that "no persons initiated in the Bacchanalian rites should presume to come together or assemble on account of those rites, or to perform any such kind of worship;" and above all, that search should be made for those who had assembled or conspired for personal abuse, or for any other flagitious practices.

Postumius then addressed the assembly of the people: "Romans, to no former assembly was this solemn supplication to the gods more suitable or even more necessary: as it serves to remind you, that these are the deities whom your forefathers pointed out as the objects of your worship, veneration, and prayers: and not those which infatuated men's minds with corrupt and foreign modes of religion, and drove them, as if goaded by the furies, to every lust and every vice....That the Bacchanalian rites have subsisted for some time past in every country in Italy, and are at present performed in many parts of this city also, I am sure you must have been informed, not only by report, but by the nightly noises and horrid yells that resound through the whole city; but still you are ignorant of the nature of that business. Part of you think it is some kind of worship of the gods; others, some excusable sport and amusement, and that, whatever it may be, it concerns but a few. First, then, a great part of them are women, and this was the source of the evil; the rest are males, but nearly resembling women; actors and pathics in the vilest lewdness; night revelers, driven frantic by wine, noises of instruments, and clamors. The conspiracy, as yet, has no strength; but it has abundant means of acquiring strength, for they are becoming more numerous every day....

Of what kind do you suppose are the meetings of these people? In the first place, held in the night, and in the next, composed promiscuously of men and women. If you knew at what ages the males are initiated, you would feel not only pity but also shame for them. Romans, can you think youths initiated, under such oaths as theirs, are fit to be made soldiers? That arms should be intrusted with wretches brought out of that temple of obscenity? Shall these, contaminated with their own foul debaucheries and those of others, be champions for the chastity of your wives and children?....The impious assembly at present confines itself to outrages on private citizens; because it has not yet acquired force sufficient to crush the commonwealth; but the evil increases and spreads daily; it is already too great for the private ranks of life to contain it, and aims its views at the state....

"How often in the ages of our fathers was it given in charge to the magistrates, to prohibit the performance of any foreign religious rites; to banish strolling sacrificers and soothsayers from the forum, the circus, and the city; to search for, and burn, books of divination; and to abolish every mode of sacrificing that was not conformable to the Roman practice! For they, completely versed in every divine and human law, maintained that nothing tended so strongly to the subversion of religion as sacrifice, when we offered it not after the institutions of our forefathers, but after foreign customs...."

On the assembly being dismissed, great terror spread throughout the city; nor was it confined merely within the walls, or to the Roman territory, for everywhere throughout the whole of Italy alarm began to be felt, when the letters from the guest-friends were received, concerning the decree of the senate, and what passed in the assembly, and the edict of the consuls. During the night, which succeeded the day in which the affair was made public, great numbers, attempting to fly, were seized, and brought back by the triumvirs, who had posted guards at all gates; and informations were lodged against many, some of whom, both men and women, put themselves to death. Above seven thousand men and women are said to have taken the oath of the association. But it appeared that the heads of the conspiracy were the two Catinii....

Those who, as it appeared, had been only initiated, and had made after the priest, and in the most solemn form, the prescribed imprecations, in which the accursed conspiracy for the perpetration of every crime and lust was contained, but who had not themselves committed, or compelled others to commit, any of those acts to which they were bound by the oath--all such they left in prison. But those who had forcibly committed personal defilements or murders, or were stained with the guilt of false evidence, counterfeit seals, forged wills, or other frauds, all these they punished with death. A greater number were executed than thrown into prison; indeed, the multitude of men and women who suffered in both ways, was very considerable....A charge was then given to demolish all the places where the Bacchanalians had held their meetings; first in Rome, and then throughout all Italy; excepting those wherein should be found some ancient altar or consecrated statue.

The entire Spartacan revolt was, essentially, a Dionysian revolt. Spartacus' wife was a preistess of Dionysus. His army was made up of former slaves and Romans who wanted to overturn the order of Roman civilization.

Plutarch writes:

The insurrection of the gladiators and their devastation of Italy, which is generally called the war of Spartacus,11 had its origin as follows. A certain Lentulus Batiatus had a school of gladiators at Capua, most of whom were Gauls and Thracians. p337 Through no misconduct of theirs, but owing to the injustice of their owner, they were kept in close confinement and reserved for gladiatorial combats. 2 Two hundred of these planned to make their escape, and when information was laid against them, those who got wind of it and succeeded in getting away, seventy-eight in number, seized cleavers and spits from some kitchen and sallied out. On the road they fell in with waggons conveying gladiators' weapons to another city; these they plundered and armed themselves. Then they took up a strong position and elected three leaders. The first of these was Spartacus, a Thracian of Nomadic stock,a possessed not only of great courage and strength, but also in sagacity and culture superior to his fortune, and more Hellenic than Thracian. 3 It is said that when he was first brought to Rome to be sold, a serpent was seen coiled about his face as he slept, and his wife, who was of the same tribe as Spartacus, a prophetess, and subject to visitations of the Dionysiac frenzy, declared it the sign of a great and formidable power which would attend him to a fortunate issue. This woman shared in his escape and was then living with him.

They were interested in absolving all class and gender distinctions. All sexual mores were abolished. The law was that of the mob. Even Spartacus couldn't reign in their depravity.

I know the first Servile War was also led by Dionysians. It was started by a slave who was presented himself as a prophet of Dionysius. It was the same concept: eradicate all class and gender roles and distinctions. No hierarchy. Utopia would ensue (it didn't).

This was the ancient world's version of our marxists.


It's a mistake to conflate them with the likes of the Gracchi brothers or guys like Clodius Pulcher. Those guys were more interested in rebalancing power within the system, not destroying it entirely. These degenerates will always try to connect themselves to the more legitimate movements of the past (like feminists tried to refashion the suffragists as "first wave feminism" to confer legitimacy to what is essentially a cultural marxist hate group). Don't let them snow you.

[BjornP]

I gave you the first source of it. Go back and read it. They literally wanted to overturn the social order. Women and men were "equals". No slaves and no masters. That was what that entire movement was about. Stop saying people don't provide you with sources when they clearly do. You just ignore them and say that because your argument is crap.

Nowhere have I said you didn't provide a source, and you know that. I demonstrated to you how you were reading the source wrong and why. You can take the advice of someone who knows better than you about reading historical sources, or you can read history like a SJW does it: With hysteria, ignorance and a desperate need to be offended.

[Speaker to Animals]

You ignored it, faggot. Livy is a first source you fucking dumbass. Fuck off.

[Penner]

Well, pictures tell another story:



How hard is it to say that Nazis, the KKK, and Neo-Nazis are bad?

There bad, will you say the same thing about AntiFa, BLM, etc. ?

AntiFa maybe..... BLM pretty much the majority don't want violence but a changed in policing. Also, both groups are willing to accept others into their group- really don't see it with the Neo-Nazis.

[BjornP]

You ignored it, faggot. Livy is a first source you fucking dumbass. Fuck off.

You can just admit you clearly don't know what you're talking about and that I do, instead of pretending that I'm "ignoring your post".

You presented Livy's account of the bacchanal rituals, not his (brief) description of Spartacus's war, which would have the first source. See, Livy does write about Spartacus, but nowhere does he mention the Dionysian priestess-wife angle.

http://www.livius.org/li-ln/livy/perioc ... ae091.html

Your claim is this: Spartacus was a sort of proto-SJW who intended to upend the Roman social order, as evidenced by him being a "Dionysian".

In order to prove that assertion you present two sources. Livy and Plutarch. Livy to prove that Dionysius mystery cults were concerned with overturning Roman society. And Plutarch to prove that Spartacus was a "Dionysian".

Here's why your analysis is nonsense:

For the last time: Romans had no idea about foreign gods. If a Roman author is writing about Germanic tribes, Gauls, Scythians or Thracians worshipping "Dionysus" or "Mercury", it's not really Dionysus and Mercury being described. Seriously, how many times do I have to write this? As such, the supposed wife of Spartacus would have been a priestess or some Thracian god or goddess. And it is for that reason your use of Livy is completely irrelevant and not a first source, because its content does not apply to Spartacus.

Had Spartacus been Greek or Roman, and a source said his wife was in the cult of Dionysus, then you'd be right to call him Dionysian. At least by association. In that case, Livy's account could have been relevant. But he wasn't Greek or Roman.

Of course, presenting Livy's account of the recounting of the bacchanal rituals as some sort of cult devoted to the fall of civilization and linking that to feminism, and proto-cultural-marxism.... Livy's mad that the nobility are banging freedmen and slaves like they were social equals. You think he'd give a shit about sexual depravity because of the sex? Nah, pedophilia, pederasty, sodomy, sexual torture, all of that was perfectly acceptable to polite Roman society, as long as it was done to the slaves in the privacy of the domus, and not by the slaves. The moral issue with the orgies was the presumption of social equality. Nothing of Livy outside the "slaves are banging free women like equals" part, speaks to any sort of egalitarianism, and even then it's only limited to the time of the ritual. Not a way of life.

Of course, it wasn't really equal. There are no historical sources of any sort of Dionysian abolutionists. The orgies were part of a ritual, not an ideology of abolishing slavery. If there were Dionysian abolutionist, you might have had a point.

[Speaker to Animals]

I just quoted the first source, Livy, on what the Bacchus cult was all about. Didn't bother reading another word salad from you. Others can believe your nonsense posturing or the Roman historian Livy. I care not which.

[TheReal_ND]

Sorry dude. Skin color is only skin deep but race is even deeper. One only has to deal with blacks and Hispanics on a daily basis. I know you don't and hardly expect you to understand the difference between races when the extent of your racial awareness hinges on a National Geographic magazine but some of us have to deal with the consequences of multiculturalism.

So, how much does the skin tone, cranial features, the biological appearance thing actually matter to you vs. the cultural aspect? If some years from now your boy introduced you to his new girlfriend, a girl who looked Mexican, but who did not even speak Spanish, because she was raised by white people, would that worry you? If you could be 100% assured that he passed on your culture to his kids, even if your grandkids became a little darker, would that still worry you?

Hispanics are usually around 40% European or at least the presentable ones are. I wouldn't sweat that too much if she was a good woman and actually knew how to make tortillas. She would be making a roughly 60-70% European abstraction grand baby that could pass as white and maybe even look like me a little