The Religion Discussion Thread

[TheReal_ND]

[Okeefenokee]

1) God knows every outcome therefore giving you some "test" means he gives a fuck how you will perform

Stopped right there

The first step is recognizing that you aren't God. When you catch yourself comparing how God works or what God does to what you think, you've got to stop and back up.

That's the mistake I see people make more than probably anything else. They say something like, "I wouldn't let kids die, but kids die, therefor there either isn't a god, or he's bad," and they completely miss the part where they equated themselves with the Creator of the universe, despite the fact that their perceived omniscience doesn't prevent them from stumping their toes on the furniture in the dark.

It seemed like a simple enough lesson when I learned it when I was little, but apparently a lot of people don't fully grasp where they really stand as a mortal compared to God. It's some serious hubris to believe that God is supposed to comport to what your puny mortal brain thinks, or else He isn't real.

The issue of pre-determination versus free will falls into this category. When you find yourself judging the merits of the options, as a mortal confined to one point in time at any given moment, unable to travel within time, unable to exist in multiple points in time simultaneously, and ultimately restricted to a tiny sliver of points in time before you die, yet you think you're equipped to discern and decide the truths of eternity past and present, you've seriously overestimated your abilities.

[katarn]

Hard to apply logic to religion. Consider:

1) God created you, and wants to test your goodness for eternal happiness. Yet, he can see the future. If God can see the future, then you don't have Free Will. Therefore, the test is meaningless.

2) God created you imperfectly, and if you fail his test, you go off to Hell/Gehenna/Gre'thor, to suffer for an eternity. After 30-70 years of life, you get 1,000,000,000,000,000 years of extreme pain and torment. What kind of sick fuck would do this? And why would you want to serve it?

3) Reincarnation is real, yet the human population changes over time (generally gets larger). Therefore, where are new people coming from? If there's a near-extinction event, where do they go?

4) Hinduism (and Klingons) believe that life is only a dream, before real life begins. Then why wait? Kill yourself and move on.

5) Hebrews stone people for centuries, over minor dietary infractions. Jew prophet comes along, wipes out Abrahamic law, and declares a new plan. What happens to all of the dead souls before he came along? What happens to the souls of the people that stoned them?

1) Somewhat addressed already, but perhaps specify religion? Christian doctrine- at least Protestant, I don't know Catholic well enough to say- says that your goodness is irrelevant to your eternal destination.

2) Again assuming you mean Christianity, you have already failed His test. (And what Hell is varies with who you talk to).

3) Solid argument. By it, Reincarnation = fake.

4) In Hinduism, you need to fulfill dharma to advance in life rank ( my term) until you get to the next stage. This is where that concept of kharma comes in, and you do get judged by your goodness. Killing yourself is like a -10000 on the kharma scale, so you will probably not make it up the ladder that way.

5) I'm not aware of any such thing, but I might just not know. Examples? Dead souls before Jesus is a good question I can't answer. Latter would be in a similar situation I assume, which means I again don't know.

[SuburbanFarmer]

He really doesn't see how free will and God's omniscience are compatible. That is how low brow this is.

Honestly, that one never gave me much trouble. I never saw a conflict between someone knowing something would happen and planning for it and another person choosing to do it.

If they actually have a choice, then God cannot know the outcome.

Either:

I have free will, and it’s not predictable

I don’t have free will, and the choice is meaningless. I’m to be tortured for eternity, through no fault of my own.

[SuburbanFarmer]

1) God knows every outcome therefore giving you some "test" means he gives a fuck how you will perform

Stopped right there

The first step is recognizing that you aren't God. When you catch yourself comparing how God works or what God does to what you think, you've got to stop and back up.

That's the mistake I see people make more than probably anything else. They say something like, "I wouldn't let kids die, but kids die, therefor there either isn't a god, or he's bad," and they completely miss the part where they equated themselves with the Creator of the universe, despite the fact that their perceived omniscience doesn't prevent them from stumping their toes on the furniture in the dark.

It seemed like a simple enough lesson when I learned it when I was little, but apparently a lot of people don't fully grasp where they really stand as a mortal compared to God. It's some serious hubris to believe that God is supposed to comport to what your puny mortal brain thinks, or else He isn't real.

The issue of pre-determination versus free will falls into this category. When you find yourself judging the merits of the options, as a mortal confined to one point in time at any given moment, unable to travel within time, unable to exist in multiple points in time simultaneously, and ultimately restricted to a tiny sliver of points in time before you die, yet you think you're equipped to discern and decide the truths of eternity past and present, you've seriously overestimated your abilities.

Yet, I’m given an inherent sense of morality, by said Creator. Objective morality, remember? Since Creator created the morality within me, and doesn’t follow that morality, I have to judge him as immoral.

If you’re saying there is none, or that I can’t perceive it, then all I’m left with is to follow the literal text of (insert chosen holy text here).

[Speaker to Animals]

God knowing the future has no bearing on your free will.

[SuburbanFarmer]

He really doesn't see how free will and God's omniscience are compatible. That is how low brow this is.

Then enlighten us. Because it’s got a fair few billion of your fellow apes confused, including some very intelligent ones.

[SuburbanFarmer]

God knowing the future has no bearing on your free will.

If he already knows what I’ll chose, then I never had a choice to begin with. Otherwise, it could not be known.

[MilSpecs]

1) God knows every outcome therefore giving you some "test" means he gives a fuck how you will perform

Stopped right there

The first step is recognizing that you aren't God. When you catch yourself comparing how God works or what God does to what you think, you've got to stop and back up.

That's the mistake I see people make more than probably anything else. They say something like, "I wouldn't let kids die, but kids die, therefor there either isn't a god, or he's bad," and they completely miss the part where they equated themselves with the Creator of the universe, despite the fact that their perceived omniscience doesn't prevent them from stumping their toes on the furniture in the dark.

You're focussing on the nature of God. I'm focussing on what it is in humanity that drove us to create gods. Kids die or live because they're part of the natural world. The laws of the natural world rule as the framework for all life. Our attempt to cope with the harsh realities of the laws of the natural world drove us to create gods. They are literally our coping mechanism.

This is why, to me, the question of deities is more "is this still good for us?" Or "is there a better way to cope with our mortality?" or "is there a reality-based spiritual philosophy that can work for us?".

[SuburbanFarmer]

1) God knows every outcome therefore giving you some "test" means he gives a fuck how you will perform

Stopped right there

The first step is recognizing that you aren't God. When you catch yourself comparing how God works or what God does to what you think, you've got to stop and back up.

That's the mistake I see people make more than probably anything else. They say something like, "I wouldn't let kids die, but kids die, therefor there either isn't a god, or he's bad," and they completely miss the part where they equated themselves with the Creator of the universe, despite the fact that their perceived omniscience doesn't prevent them from stumping their toes on the furniture in the dark.

You're focussing on the nature of God. I'm focussing on what it is in humanity that drove us to create gods. Kids die or live because they're part of the natural world. The laws of the natural world rule as the framework for all life. Our attempt to cope with the harsh realities of the laws of the natural world drove us to create gods. They are literally our coping mechanism.

This is why, to me, the question of deities is more "is this still good for us?" Or "is there a better way to cope with our mortality?" or "is there a reality-based spiritual philosophy that can work for us?".

As you can see in this thread, the best you can hope for is to enlighten yourself. Fear will continue to keep the religious in line for a few more generations.

You can’t really disprove the Flying Spaghetti Monster, so it’s asking a lot for someone to gamble their “soul” on facing the fear.