The current crop of left wing debaters is weak

[Hwen Hoshino]

In the Liberalist paradigm, Libertarians are Right, but so are we. And Libertarians are so far Right that any intervention at all is considered socialism, so they are probably who ssu is talking about.

That's just because how far the state went.

These days going against corruption, cronyism and monopolies is labeled to be socialist. That's the fucking problem.

I don't see that on this forum? Libertarians are the most difficult to get the point across too, is that who you're talking about?

p.s. This forum doesn't seem to have anybody from The Right either: we're all Liberalists here.

Lol. The American Right, maybe? This forum is a little of the mainstream. Or I don't know. And is there a difference between a liberalist and a libertarian?

What I was talking is more about right wing parties and their discourse. Only when they talk about national defence can they accept that it's something of a collective effort. Seems like people forget that things like social security was brought on by Bismarck, not a left leaning guy by any standard. Yes, the thing has it negative aspects, but some kind of safety net has also it's merits.

In my view a rich man and a poor man don't in reality have much in common. Hence some common thing like patriotism, a love for your country, or the values which ones country is based upon are extremely important. When the rich and the poor do share something, there is a society that both belong to. Otherwise there is no social cohesion.

I bet they have more in common than they used to.

[ssu]

When the rich and the poor do share something, there is a society that both belong to. Otherwise there is no social cohesion.

There are ideologies that depend on an adversarial relationship; Marxism for example. Originally, Marxists pitted the Proletariat (poor) against the Bourgeoisie (rich), but in Western societies, Marxists tend to be Bourgeois, so the conflict became Oppressed vs. Oppressor. NeoCon ideology is competing militaries, and Libertarian ideology is Individual vs. State. Liberalists consider Liberty the primary imperative, live-and-let-live, I'll-leave-you-alone-you-leave-me-alone, you-are-my-ally-not-my-partner, but no real adversary other than the people trying to obligate them to things other than what they democratically agreed to.

p.s. Thanks to Jordan Peterson for clarifying my understanding of Marxism.

It's quite true and this is why I hate so much Marxism. It has in it's roots not only this adversarial relationship, it also sees violence as basically the only way to resolve this. One way to separate communists from socialists is the way they see the society can be changed. One by peacefull means, one by violence, through a revolution. The latter is Marxism. Hence the rich being the enemy that have to be killed is basically ingrained in the whole philosophy. That's where it in the leads to when the "proletariat" takes power. Hence it's a truly evil ideology because it promotes violence. This is why everywhere where the communists got into power lead to widespread violence, even if naturally your academic Marxists will deny that.

You don't have many academic people defending Nazism and arguing that Hitler got it wrong, but otherwise it would have been great and still has a lot to give. That's basically what Marxists are like.

[Penner]

I don't think anyone on the new MHF is particularly "left wing" in the first place - depending of course, on whether you mean socially or economically Left.

We had avowed socialists, and a commie on the DCF (and an outright fascist). The range here is more like Center-Left to Hard-Right, with some Trailer Parliament sprinkled about. I don't think anyone here is particularly Socially Left.

Several years ago, we had like one guy that claimed to be "antisex" whatever that was supposed to be. And it was hilarious seeing him being trolled to death.

For some reason, the DCF would attract the craziest posters and those were the guys that made the place great to come back and just witness the decimation of them.

[Martin Hash]

It's difficult to debate Left-wingers because they're taught to scorn & ridicule anyone who does not agree with their dogma. Literally, they will not debate, I know this from experience. Their agenda is to burn down the White Male Straight World & emerge victorious from the ashes, never giving a thought to the other group that will emerge from the ashes, the ones with the guns.

[heydaralon]

It's difficult to debate Left-wingers because they're taught to scorn & ridicule anyone who does not agree with their dogma. Literally, they will not debate, I know this from experience. Their agenda is to burn down the White Male Straight World & emerge victorious from the ashes, never giving a thought to the other group that will emerge from the ashes, the ones with the guns.

It seems like a bunch of leftist do understand that though. The black panthers were armed to the teeth. The Weatherman used violence as did Baader Meinhoff and RAF. A lot of leftists are using weapons at protests too. And of course, the most successful Leftists Mao and Lenin were keen on using guns.

[TheReal_ND]

lol yeah but they vote otherwise. They don't seem to be good long term thinkers

[Smitty-48]

The tension between the revolutionary and the bourgeois is not poor v. rich, the bourgeoisie are simply those who are not prepared to kill and die for a cause, and in failing to do so, prop up the Ancien Regime by default, they could be wealthy, the could be poor, the issue for the revolutionary is simply that they are inherently counterevolutionary by their very nature, to wit, the weak link, in the chain of socialism, socialism merely being a transitional state, on the path to the post scarcity utopia of Communism, someday.

[heydaralon]

The tension between the revolutionary and the bourgeois is not poor v. rich, the bourgeoisie are simply those who are not prepared to kill and die for a cause, and in failing to do so, prop up the Ancien Regime by default, they could be wealthy, the could be poor, the issue for the revolutionary is simply that they are inherently counterevolutionary by their very nature, to wit, the weak link, in the chain of socialism, socialism merely being a transitional state, on the path to the post scarcity utopia of Communism, someday.

Whats even weirder about this whole idea is that many leftists fundamentally agree that Communism is the final state, but they were willing to kill each other based on their means of getting to that final end. Some marxists thought that communism was best left to happen organically, and eventually, possibly over centuries, the proles would realize that they were being conned and overthrow the oligarchs. No vanguard revolutionaries needed. Of course, others like Lenin, were sickened by this kind of fatalism and felt that they needed to enact the change that led to the revolution. Today, many Islamic terror groups have similar strategic debates. It is absolutely crazy how much AQ and ISIS ripped off from heathen atheist western Marxists. I'm sure they'd hate to hear it, but it is extremely ironic. Even the west's enemies drink from the same ideological well.

[Martin Hash]

It's difficult to debate Left-wingers because they're taught to scorn & ridicule anyone who does not agree with their dogma. Literally, they will not debate, I know this from experience. Their agenda is to burn down the White Male Straight World & emerge victorious from the ashes, never giving a thought to the other group that will emerge from the ashes, the ones with the guns.

It seems like a bunch of leftist do understand that though. The black panthers were armed to the teeth. The Weatherman used violence as did Baader Meinhoff and RAF. A lot of leftists are using weapons at protests too. And of course, the most successful Leftists Mao and Lenin were keen on using guns.

There are 100 million guns waiting for Leftists to open fire.

[SuburbanFarmer]

It's difficult to debate Left-wingers because they're taught to scorn & ridicule anyone who does not agree with their dogma. Literally, they will not debate, I know this from experience. Their agenda is to burn down the White Male Straight World & emerge victorious from the ashes, never giving a thought to the other group that will emerge from the ashes, the ones with the guns.

It seems like a bunch of leftist do understand that though. The black panthers were armed to the teeth. The Weatherman used violence as did Baader Meinhoff and RAF. A lot of leftists are using weapons at protests too. And of course, the most successful Leftists Mao and Lenin were keen on using guns.

There are 100 million guns waiting for Leftists to open fire.

Calling for political civil war, Marty? You've been spending too much time here.