WWII Equipment - Vics, Aircraft and Kit

[heydaralon]

I can't blame the Soviets for using dogs as trained kamikazies. The Soviets lived through Stalinist purges, Ukranian Genocide and Gulags. The Soviets lost 25 Million people in the war, what was a few dogs to them ? Removed Dan's Ostfront, this is a people that marched an entire military unit to their death in a raging river because they were told to do so.

So bourgeoise to cry about dogs. If you treat humans like animals, why would you care about animals?

The Penal units, the Shtrafbats, were used as true canon fodder, to open a route in a minefield, or to literally fight to the last man and if someone tries to retreat, shoot him. There's many way to clear minefields, for example. Goes well with an ideology, which is all about the collective.

Even though he defeated Hitler, I am not defending Stalin or the Russian Army's casualty intensive tactics. If you really look at a lot of the Russian victories, they succeeded in spite of themselves. The battle of Kursk is probably the best example of this. It was a shitshow from start to finish, with Russian tank drivers piling on top of each other into ditches. Frankly they would have been better off getting a German shepherd to drive the tanks instead of blow them up.

[ssu]

Even though he defeated Hitler, I am not defending Stalin or the Russian Army's casualty intensive tactics. If you really look at a lot of the Russian victories, they succeeded in spite of themselves. The battle of Kursk is probably the best example of this. It was a shitshow from start to finish, with Russian tank drivers piling on top of each other into ditches. Frankly they would have been better off getting a German shepherd to drive the tanks instead of blow them up.

There were good units in Red Army and good generals. The famous one's commanded quite well their units. What has to be understood that when 1943 and 1944 come around, the Red Army is something different that it was in 1941.

(One classic photo I think from Kursk)


(The Red Army advancing into Hungary in 1944. Notice the armoured personnel carriers and machine guns)

[Alexander PhiAlipson]

Even though he defeated Hitler, I am not defending Stalin or the Russian Army's casualty intensive tactics. If you really look at a lot of the Russian victories, they succeeded in spite of themselves. The battle of Kursk is probably the best example of this. It was a shitshow from start to finish, with Russian tank drivers piling on top of each other into ditches. Frankly they would have been better off getting a German shepherd to drive the tanks instead of blow them up.

There were good units in Red Army and good generals. The famous one's commanded quite well their units. What has to be understood that when 1943 and 1944 come around, the Red Army is something different that it was in 1941.

(One classic photo I think from Kursk)


(The Red Army advancing into Hungary in 1944. Notice the armoured personnel carriers and machine guns)

Heydaralon's just showing his typical Western ignorance of the Soviet's World War Two fighting machine and its tactics.

Look at that lead M-3--did it steal all the others' machine guns?

[heydaralon]

Even though he defeated Hitler, I am not defending Stalin or the Russian Army's casualty intensive tactics. If you really look at a lot of the Russian victories, they succeeded in spite of themselves. The battle of Kursk is probably the best example of this. It was a shitshow from start to finish, with Russian tank drivers piling on top of each other into ditches. Frankly they would have been better off getting a German shepherd to drive the tanks instead of blow them up.

There were good units in Red Army and good generals. The famous one's commanded quite well their units. What has to be understood that when 1943 and 1944 come around, the Red Army is something different that it was in 1941.

(One classic photo I think from Kursk)


(The Red Army advancing into Hungary in 1944. Notice the armoured personnel carriers and machine guns)

Heydaralon's just showing his typical Western ignorance of the Soviet's World War Two fighting machine and its tactics.

Look at that lead M-3--did it steal all the others' machine guns?

I'm not denying that the Soviets won some extraordinary battles, but they wasted millions of lives doing it. In the end, Stalin wanted to get to Berlin before the Allies so he allowed millions of his soldiers to pointlessly die. Thats a great tactic. Another great one is where dozens of Russian tanks full of inebriated drivers piled into a ditch and were rendered useless during the Battle of Kursk. I think for a brief time the commander thought he was gonna be shot. Again, the Russians took Eastern Europe, but I guess my Western ignorance is showing by pointing out that they made some serious mistakes.

[Alexander PhiAlipson]

I'm not denying that the Soviets won some extraordinary battles, but they wasted millions of lives doing it. In the end, Stalin wanted to get to Berlin before the Allies so he allowed millions of his soldiers to pointlessly die. Thats a great tactic. Another great one is where dozens of Russian tanks full of inebriated drivers piled into a ditch and were rendered useless during the Battle of Kursk. I think for a brief time the commander thought he was gonna be shot. Again, the Russians took Eastern Europe, but I guess my Western ignorance is showing by pointing out that they made some serious mistakes.

Source?

[heydaralon]

I'm not denying that the Soviets won some extraordinary battles, but they wasted millions of lives doing it. In the end, Stalin wanted to get to Berlin before the Allies so he allowed millions of his soldiers to pointlessly die. Thats a great tactic. Another great one is where dozens of Russian tanks full of inebriated drivers piled into a ditch and were rendered useless during the Battle of Kursk. I think for a brief time the commander thought he was gonna be shot. Again, the Russians took Eastern Europe, but I guess my Western ignorance is showing by pointing out that they made some serious mistakes.

Source?

It talks about it in Richard J Evans the Third Reich at War page 488 to 489.

The soviet tank drivers were wasted and drove into a 15 feet anti-tank ditch dug the night before by their own army. The Soviets lost 190 tanks that day and the first line of them drove into that ditch. This happened in Prochorovka.

By the way, even though technically the Soviets won that battle it was still a huge fuck up on their part. You can read differing numbers on this, but they destroyed between 250-320 German tanks to their own losses of 1600-2000. I think they lost 3 times as many men. Many of Hitler's gernerals and future historians believe that the Germans could have actually won that battle. It has become mythologized, but the reality was a lot different.

[heydaralon]

Those losses are absurd. Many Roman and Greek generals have been tried and executed for losses far less than that.

[ssu]

Those losses are absurd. Many Roman and Greek generals have been tried and executed for losses far less than that.

Actually, what we look as wasting lives depicts quite well Soviet ideology. On the other hand the Americans have had the idea of "Safety First" even in WW2. Still, the Russians tolerate far more casualties than Western armies do.

Another example, for example if one Russian tank hits a mine, then one Russian way to handle it is simply have another tank push it through the minefield as an improvised mine-clearing wreckage. When you start pushing through, you don't stop the movement because a minor minefield.

[Alexander PhiAlipson]

It talks about it in Richard J Evans the Third Reich at War page 488 to 489.

The soviet tank drivers were wasted and drove into a 15 feet anti-tank ditch dug the night before by their own army. The Soviets lost 190 tanks that day and the first line of them drove into that ditch. This happened in Prochorovka.

By the way, even though technically the Soviets won that battle it was still a huge fuck up on their part. You can read differing numbers on this, but they destroyed between 250-320 German tanks to their own losses of 1600-2000. I think they lost 3 times as many men. Many of Hitler's gernerals and future historians believe that the Germans could have actually won that battle. It has become mythologized, but the reality was a lot different.

Those figures are WAY off.
I see your author devoted six continuous pages to the entire battle in a book over nine-hundred pages long. The Germans lost the battle before it began. One German general was quote on July 4,1943 (the night before the battle began)--I paraphrase--Today America celebrates its independence; tomorrow we lose ours. They never stood a chance. There's NO WAY anyone can spin the bad of Kursk into a Soviet fuck up. It was an absolute disaster for Germany. They never recovered. Almost all the new panthers broke down or were destroyed; the elephants proved susceptible to infantry attacks and the tigers were too few in number to make a difference. The cream of the SS panzertruppen fled the field to lick their their nearly mortal wounds never to assemble again in such strength on the Russian front. The Germans gave up the initiative for once and for all on the Eastern front.
You may want to read some different books.

[heydaralon]

It talks about it in Richard J Evans the Third Reich at War page 488 to 489.

The soviet tank drivers were wasted and drove into a 15 feet anti-tank ditch dug the night before by their own army. The Soviets lost 190 tanks that day and the first line of them drove into that ditch. This happened in Prochorovka.

By the way, even though technically the Soviets won that battle it was still a huge fuck up on their part. You can read differing numbers on this, but they destroyed between 250-320 German tanks to their own losses of 1600-2000. I think they lost 3 times as many men. Many of Hitler's gernerals and future historians believe that the Germans could have actually won that battle. It has become mythologized, but the reality was a lot different.

Those figures are WAY off.
I see your author devoted six continuous pages to the entire battle in a book over nine-hundred pages long. The Germans lost the battle before it began. One German general was quote on July 4,1943 (the night before the battle began)--I paraphrase--Today America celebrates its independence; tomorrow we lose ours. They never stood a chance. There's NO WAY anyone can spin the bad of Kursk into a Soviet fuck up. It was an absolute disaster for Germany. They never recovered. Almost all the new panthers broke down or were destroyed; the elephants proved susceptible to infantry attacks and the tigers were too few in number to make a difference. The cream of the SS panzertruppen fled the field to lick their their nearly mortal wounds never to assemble again in such strength on the Russian front. The Germans gave up the initiative for once and for all on the Eastern front.
You may want to read some different books.

Look at the figures buddy. There are other places to verify this. You think that losing six to one or eight to one in tanks demonstrates good strategy? I'm glad you aren't commanding American soldiers. They also lost like 3 planes for every German one they shot down.