Illiberalism on the Left

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LVH2
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Re: Illiberalism on the Left

Post by LVH2 » Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:07 am

BjornP wrote:
Speaker to Animals wrote:It's more complicated than that. This professor discusses the problem further.
I'm just 4 and a half minutes in, and I'm already nodding to everything he says. Also counting myself lucky that we don't have your problem in our universities. Sweden just across the sound does, but it is a national sport to make fun of the Swedes for excatly their, usually patronizing, PC culture - even amongst our farthest leftists.

A cultural issue is usually more complex than an ideological one. It's not just your leftists that argue as if victimhood equals victory in an argument, after all. Being a victim is even economically lucrative, cash settlements for when you drop your coffee and sue the company for two million dollars for ruining your shoes and the like. No doubt that your leftists are more extreme in their victim/offender mentality, that they live in more of a bubble, but there's a reason that they are or became - how best to frame it? - socially allowed by wider society to suddenly enter and influence college life to the extent they get tenure teaching pseudo-scientific activism.
SJWs, and the degradation of the liberal/left, borrow a lot from the right, really. Secret, satanic/racist messages in pop culture. Forcing a classroom to revolve around your delicate beliefs (attach a trigger warning to Darwin, or don't teach him at all. It's not enough that I can pray as much as I like, the WHOLE CLASS must come to a stand still for prayer, etc.) We even have tons of SJW televangelists now. Or netevangeleists or whatever.

I also think some of it is kind of an advancement in the science of pandering. Disagree with the right, post-9-11. Wow, you don't support the troops, I guess. In fact, you're on the side of Al Queda.

Disagree with the left. Wow, you must hate women. In fact, I guess you're on the side of the KKK. These are good ways to make people feel good for siding with you and afraid to say anything against you.

The right have had more success in k-12, in certain areas anyway.

But the left version def. looks to be a yuge problem in universities. Though, I think labeling it Marxism is wrong. There have always been Marxist profs, many good ones. It's just an outlook, like free market economics.. I understand the idea that identarians apply Marxist thinking to other points of cultural division, but I think it just confuses things. Then, when you suggest purging marxist thought, you are doing the same thing they are.

The problem is illiberal-ism, authoritarianism and above all, in this context, anti-intellectualism.

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Re: Illiberalism on the Left

Post by Okeefenokee » Wed Dec 28, 2016 7:34 pm

Well, I think there's fundamentally an idea within the progressive mind that things should work out the way I believe they should, and if they don't, any means to right that or to protest the injustice are acceptable, and usually those means involve either a breach of civility or a breach of law. Extra legal solutions to legal problems are the way they do business.
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Martin Hash
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Re: Illiberalism on the Left

Post by Martin Hash » Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:13 pm

LVH2 wrote:SJWs, and the degradation of the liberal/left, borrow a lot from the right, really. Secret, satanic/racist messages in pop culture. Forcing a classroom to revolve around your delicate beliefs (attach a trigger warning to Darwin, or don't teach him at all. It's not enough that I can pray as much as I like, the WHOLE CLASS must come to a stand still for prayer, etc.)
Excellent counter-example. Bravo. Two heads of the same coin.
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TheReal_ND
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Re: Illiberalism on the Left

Post by TheReal_ND » Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:23 pm

Except that's not what happens. It's a good argument if that were in fact the reality. Maybe it is in a private school but concerning those it's really not scandalous at all if that happens. Unless of course they are indoctrinating youth with jihadi sentiments a-la Gülen school style 8-)

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Re: Illiberalism on the Left

Post by Okeefenokee » Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:28 pm

TheReal_ND wrote:Except that's not what happens. It's a good argument if that were in fact the reality. Maybe it is in a private school but concerning those it's really not scandalous at all if that happens. Unless of course they are indoctrinating youth with jihadi sentiments a-la Gülen school style 8-)
True. Stickers on textbook covers gets roaring opposition. White privilege being taught in colleges does not.
GrumpyCatFace wrote:Dumb slut partied too hard and woke up in a weird house. Ran out the door, weeping for her failed life choices, concerned townsfolk notes her appearance and alerted the fuzz.

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LVH2
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Re: Illiberalism on the Left

Post by LVH2 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:50 am

Okeefenokee wrote:
TheReal_ND wrote:Except that's not what happens. It's a good argument if that were in fact the reality. Maybe it is in a private school but concerning those it's really not scandalous at all if that happens. Unless of course they are indoctrinating youth with jihadi sentiments a-la Gülen school style 8-)
True. Stickers on textbook covers gets roaring opposition. White privilege being taught in colleges does not.
@ Nuke, Well, I think it's still probably a small minority of schools where SJWs get Huck Finn banned. The point is, the ideology is the same. It's not like the religious right doesn't WANT every student to have to sit in silence while they pray. They just lost. I hope the SJWs lose too. But, I agree, they've had more success in colleges than the RR had in k-12, or it seems so to me.

@ Okeefenokee, Stickers and trigger warnings should get roaring opposition. They are anti-intellectual.

There's no problem with white privilege being presented, imo. I don't think it's a very good narrative, though I agree with some of it. But liberalism says everyone gets a say. Illiberalism is, only my ideology gets a say. Intellectual pursuit is something like exploring different ideas and following the evidence to the best ones. Anti-intellectuals want one set of pre-determined answers imposed, and others forbidden.

My problem is with illiberalism and anti intellectualism, from any camp.

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de officiis
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Re: Illiberalism on the Left

Post by de officiis » Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:36 am

Speaker to Animals wrote:Liberal professors discuss counters to the intolerance of the marxists who have taken over so much of the left. Very interesting discussion.



Could use a bit of discussion about that here. Flooding a thread with cat pics and insults is essentially the same thing as trying to shutdown speeches and voices one does not like. It's fundamentally illiberal and totalitarian to the core.

I liked their ideas of universities pushing back by declaring themselves "unsafe campuses".
Nice find; he was very helpful in explaining the rise of illiberalism on the left, and that resources are available to combat it.
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Montegriffo
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Re: Illiberalism on the Left

Post by Montegriffo » Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:49 am

Speaker to Animals wrote: .

Note how these leftists will shame every conservative for the most extreme right wing group out there, pretending as though everybody on the right is directly responsible for it, demanding that conservative politicians apologize for shit that has nothing to do with them.
Lucky there are none on the right who would call everyone on the left Marxists eh Strangelove. Also a good thing that you wouldn't lower yourself to suggest that anyone who advocates reasonable immigration is actively seeking the extermination of Western culture.
Where's the :hypocritical bullshit: smiley Jason?
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de officiis
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Re: Illiberalism on the Left

Post by de officiis » Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:53 am

Speaker to Animals wrote:It's more complicated than that. This professor discusses the problem further.

Good to hear him talk about alumni funding. If that dries up at some of these colleges, it will probably provoke reform.
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Speaker to Animals
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Re: Illiberalism on the Left

Post by Speaker to Animals » Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:18 am

She gets it.